Copper as armature?

[WoN ereH]

Is there any reason why copper wire can't be used as an armature?


TIA,
Debra

[Gary Waller]

Post by WoN ereH
Is there any reason why copper wire can't be used as an armature?
TIA,
Debra

Only in the mechanical engineering sense. In a proper armature which is part
of a physical composite, rather than a frame to temporarily hold up a "bunch
of stuff", the metal should be under tension. Copper has low tensile
strength so it is not considered a desirable metal. The tensile strength of
steel (for example) and the compressive strength of concrete (for example)
enable the construction of high performance (light weight/high strength)
structures such as bridges, buildings and public artworks.

[Gary Oblock]

Post by WoN ereH
Is there any reason why copper wire can't be used as an armature?
TIA,
Debra

Debra --

Mind you, this is just speculation, but if you use it with water clay it might get a little strange
because of corrosion. I was surprised how much corrosion occurred with aluminum armature wire
in contact with water clay.

In addition, copper tends to wear harden as it is flexed and eventually gets brittle and breaks.

-- Gary Oblock
Bronze Dreams
Santa Clara, CA
http://www.bronzedreams.com

[Jeff Brown]

Post by Gary Oblock
Mind you, this is just speculation, but if you use it with water clay it
might get a little strange
because of corrosion. I was surprised how much corrosion occurred with
aluminum armature wire
in contact with water clay.
In addition, copper tends to wear harden as it is flexed and eventually gets
brittle and breaks.

Yes. Avoid using water clay over a combination of different materials
such as iron pipe, copper tubing, and aluminum wire. Eventually, you may
end up with a lot of crusty-ness in your clay similar to corroded car
battery terminals.

[Sculptingman]

Debra:

Go ahead and use copper, but be aware of the following:

Copper is ductile- ductile metals will stretch quite a ways rather
than break when stressed; this is a great property if you want to
hammer sheets of it into a mold a la the statue of liberty, but is not
very good for supporting a lot of weight. In an armature, metal rod is
usually used as both columns and beams- the ideal beam is stiff and
strong in both compression and tension. Copper, being fairly ductile,
is not particularly strong in wire form, or even in 1/4 inch and
smaller diameter tubing.

However... in 3/8 inch diameters and larger, copper tubing is
amazingly strong and useful for armatures.
In fact, for many sculptures, even those approaching life size, I
greatly prefer using sweat soldered copper water pipe. You can
assemble even very complex armatures using 45 and 90 degree, and Tee
slip fittings, all of which can be anchored to a standoff flange with
a slip to NPT adapter. (the flanges then screwed or bolted to a board,
table or other mounting surface)

You can twist and trim and adjust the armature assembly to perfection,
and only THEN sweat solder all the joints to make the whole thing
solid. This is a tremendous aid to the sculptor trying to nuance an
armature into the correct shape. Further, any joint can simply be
heated to loosen any joint that needs to be changed, and then
re-soldered to fix the corrected joint.

Because of the ductility of copper, you will need to make sure that
any large armature has at least THREE points of contact with the
surface the armature is fastened to, and that these 3 points are NOT
in line, but rather form some kind of triangular footprint. a plumb
line from the C of G should fall somewhere within this triangle. ( it
can even be right on the line connecting two points of the triangle)
For something like a standing figure, this may mean an external
element to the armature- that is, a section that falls outside the
surface of the sculpture.
For example- In a figure standing with one arm extended, I would run
the copper armature all the way out to the wrist and then TEE off to
drop a vertical section of pipe from the wrist to the mounting
surface. One hidden in each leg, and the third a long external column
running up to the wrist.
If the TEE in the wrist has the drop line THREADED, as in NPT, then
you can, during molding, cut the exposed third leg once the mold is
along far enough to support the sculpture, and thereby unscrew the
pipe from the wrist, allowing you to plug and finish the hole left
behind.

If you mount the standoff flanges to the UNDERSIDE of the mounting
surface, so that the copper pipe runs up thru a hole in the surface,
This will enable you to remove the partially or fully molded sculpture
from the mounting surface for access to the underside of either the
sculpture or the mold, and facilitate de-molding.

If you are packing foam around the copper pipe, or even tying in a
chickenwire mesh with plaster bandages over it to BULK OUT massive
areas closer to the finished surface- all of this adds weight, but can
also add considerable stiffness to aid the copper in doing its job.

One of my students fashioned an armature to these specifications for a
3/4 life size indian holding a bow, all mounted on a wooden platform.
The figure is nealry solid plastilene over the copper armature.
She has carried this sculpture all over San Diego county, even over
rough roads, in the bed of a pickup- and the figure hasn't even
developed so much as a crack.

christopher

[Gary Oblock]

Post by Sculptingman
Copper is ductile- ductile metals will stretch quite a ways rather
than break when stressed; this is a great property if you want to
hammer sheets of it into a mold a la the statue of liberty, but is not
very good for supporting a lot of weight. In an armature, metal rod is
usually used as both columns and beams- the ideal beam is stiff and
strong in both compression and tension. Copper, being fairly ductile,
is not particularly strong in wire form, or even in 1/4 inch and
smaller diameter tubing.
However... in 3/8 inch diameters and larger, copper tubing is
amazingly strong and useful for armatures.
In fact, for many sculptures, even those approaching life size, I
greatly prefer using sweat soldered copper water pipe. You can
assemble even very complex armatures using 45 and 90 degree, and Tee
slip fittings, all of which can be anchored to a standoff flange with
a slip to NPT adapter. (the flanges then screwed or bolted to a board,
table or other mounting surface)
You can twist and trim and adjust the armature assembly to perfection,
and only THEN sweat solder all the joints to make the whole thing
solid. This is a tremendous aid to the sculptor trying to nuance an
armature into the correct shape. Further, any joint can simply be
heated to loosen any joint that needs to be changed, and then
re-soldered to fix the corrected joint.
Because of the ductility of copper, you will need to make sure that
any large armature has at least THREE points of contact with the
surface the armature is fastened to, and that these 3 points are NOT
in line, but rather form some kind of triangular footprint. a plumb
line from the C of G should fall somewhere within this triangle. ( it
can even be right on the line connecting two points of the triangle)
For something like a standing figure, this may mean an external
element to the armature- that is, a section that falls outside the
surface of the sculpture.
For example- In a figure standing with one arm extended, I would run
the copper armature all the way out to the wrist and then TEE off to
drop a vertical section of pipe from the wrist to the mounting
surface. One hidden in each leg, and the third a long external column
running up to the wrist.
If the TEE in the wrist has the drop line THREADED, as in NPT, then
you can, during molding, cut the exposed third leg once the mold is
along far enough to support the sculpture, and thereby unscrew the
pipe from the wrist, allowing you to plug and finish the hole left
behind.
If you mount the standoff flanges to the UNDERSIDE of the mounting
surface, so that the copper pipe runs up thru a hole in the surface,
This will enable you to remove the partially or fully molded sculpture
from the mounting surface for access to the underside of either the
sculpture or the mold, and facilitate de-molding.
If you are packing foam around the copper pipe, or even tying in a
chickenwire mesh with plaster bandages over it to BULK OUT massive
areas closer to the finished surface- all of this adds weight, but can
also add considerable stiffness to aid the copper in doing its job.
One of my students fashioned an armature to these specifications for a
3/4 life size indian holding a bow, all mounted on a wooden platform.
The figure is nealry solid plastilene over the copper armature.
She has carried this sculpture all over San Diego county, even over
rough roads, in the bed of a pickup- and the figure hasn't even
developed so much as a crack.
christopher

Christopher --

This is a very interesting glimpse into your studio practices. Why did you chose
copper tubing over aluminum armature wire? You can get the stuff in just about any
reasonable thickness. You, of course, have to use the same kind of external scaffolding
with it that you would with copper tubing but it is very ductile and easy to adjust.

Just curious,

-- Gary

[Sculptingman]

Post by Gary Oblock
This is a very interesting glimpse into your studio practices. Why did you chose
copper tubing over aluminum armature wire? You can get the stuff in just about any
reasonable thickness. You, of course, have to use the same kind of external scaffolding
with it that you would with copper tubing but it is very ductile and easy to adjust.

Gary:
I do not like aluminum armature wire because it is both expensive and
way TOO ductile- even more so than copper.
I know many sculptors like it because they can readily pose it, and
even bend it after the plastilene is on it...
Generally, I do not like my armatures to be flexible in any regard. I
want them rigid.
I use copper pipe because, in a half inch or 3/4 inch diameter, its
flexibility is negligible in the lengths I am using (1" to 3')
In addition- alluminum TUBE is really expensive compared to copper,
and is not available with standard fittings nor any simple method of
fixing the joints. TIG wleding is just too much trouble for most of
what I do. (besides, I don't know how to TIG weld)

I also tend to prefer internal armaturing- that is, I very seldom will
SUSPEND an armature from an exterior scaffold post or column as is
common in pre-fab armatures and those folks make with aluminum. If the
design has only two connections to the plinth, I will add a third that
will run external, but it is only sharing the load with the other two-
it is not supporting even half the load.

I do use a combination of water pipe and or copper sweat soldered
pipe, and for smaller portions, or for smaller sculptures, I generally
use welding rod in various gauges.
When using solid rod, I always run TWO rods, twisted together, to
further strengthen the armature and to prevent the plasitlene from
"twisting" on the armature.

I always do a maquette before a full size sculpture, and thereby
finalize the armature I will need.
So when I make the armature I know it is correct and therfore will not
need to bend it.

The advantages of a rigid armature are that you can work the sculpture
much more aggresively, you can transport the sculpture without
damaging it, and, most imortantly, the armature will have the strength
to support not only the sculpture, but the mold that will be made on
it.


christopher

[Gary Oblock]

Post by Sculptingman

Post by Gary Oblock
This is a very interesting glimpse into your studio practices. Why did you chose
copper tubing over aluminum armature wire? You can get the stuff in just about any
reasonable thickness. You, of course, have to use the same kind of external scaffolding
with it that you would with copper tubing but it is very ductile and easy to adjust.

I do not like aluminum armature wire because it is both expensive and
way TOO ductile- even more so than copper.
I know many sculptors like it because they can readily pose it, and
even bend it after the plastilene is on it...
Generally, I do not like my armatures to be flexible in any regard. I
want them rigid.
I use copper pipe because, in a half inch or 3/4 inch diameter, its
flexibility is negligible in the lengths I am using (1" to 3')
In addition- alluminum TUBE is really expensive compared to copper,
and is not available with standard fittings nor any simple method of
fixing the joints. TIG wleding is just too much trouble for most of
what I do. (besides, I don't know how to TIG weld)
I also tend to prefer internal armaturing- that is, I very seldom will
SUSPEND an armature from an exterior scaffold post or column as is
common in pre-fab armatures and those folks make with aluminum. If the
design has only two connections to the plinth, I will add a third that
will run external, but it is only sharing the load with the other two-
it is not supporting even half the load.
I do use a combination of water pipe and or copper sweat soldered
pipe, and for smaller portions, or for smaller sculptures, I generally
use welding rod in various gauges.
When using solid rod, I always run TWO rods, twisted together, to
further strengthen the armature and to prevent the plasitlene from
"twisting" on the armature.
I always do a maquette before a full size sculpture, and thereby
finalize the armature I will need.
So when I make the armature I know it is correct and therfore will not
need to bend it.
The advantages of a rigid armature are that you can work the sculpture
much more aggresively, you can transport the sculpture without
damaging it, and, most imortantly, the armature will have the strength
to support not only the sculpture, but the mold that will be made on
it.
christopher

Christopher --

Very interesting. I'm not sure I'll switch to copper but you certainly made your
point. I personally think, given armatures seem to evoke continuing questions,
that someone should put together a survey piece on the various amateur
techniques for the FAQ.

By the way, while on the topic of armatures do you ever use detachable sections (i.e. a
head or limb)? I've experimented with this and so far it seems to work in the
pieces I've tried it on.

-- Gary

[Sculptingman]

Post by Gary Oblock
By the way, while on the topic of armatures do you ever use detachable sections (i.e. a
head or limb)? I've experimented with this and so far it seems to work in the
pieces I've tried it on.

The sculptures I create are often very complex, and difficult to mold.
I almost always have to create them in sections that can be put
together while sculpting, and detached for molding.
Perhaps the most complicated piece I have done is a piece called "Drum
Song" for Legends. (a web search would yield a picture) - this piece
was cast in pewter, and spin casting molds need very simple separation
lines to achieve good results.
In sculpting this piece I had to make the plastilene original in 13
separate parts for the initial silicone molds. Legends then further
cut it into about 40 separate spin castings for producing the edition,
and hand soldered the parts together.

Each detachable part had its own armature with one or two armature
wires sticking out along the detachable part's own separation line.
These were carfully made so that I could assemble all the parts in
plastilene without the protruding armature wires getting in the way,
but the wires were critical in mounting the separate parts to a board
for molding.

If you find a picture online, the most interesting part to make was
the huge feathered "bustle" on the back of the figure- it has 100
feathers on it and its only about 1/8" thick.
To make this part I first created a very smooth, shallow plaster
"cone" shape that was the right size and dish for the part I needed to
sculpt.
I shellaced this plaster form and sculpted one "side" of the bustle,
sticking the plastilene to the form. the form held the clay in place
better than any armature and made sculpting the bustle like doing a
relief sculpture on a board.
Once this was done I took a silicone mold from this side of the
sculpture and removed the mold without disturbing the plastilene
sculpture on the original plaster form.
Then I soaped the exposed plaster on the cone form, and cast plaster
over the sculpted relief. When I pulled the two plaster parts apart I
essentially had a plaster mold matching the silicone one I pulled
first.
I then filled the negative feather spaces on the plaster "mold" and
essentially sculpted the OTHER side of the feathers, this time using
the plaster "mold" as the armature. This allowed me to sculpt the
feathers very thin. Once finsihed, I pulled a silicone mold off of
this "B" side.
I could then put the two silicone mold halves together and cast rigid
resin masters that were just 1/8 inch thick and flawless.
Basically this technique amounts to sculpting and molding each HALF of
a sculpture separately, then joining the mold halves to realize the
complete casting. This is great for making very thin, delicate parts
that are impossible to internally armature.

christopher
PS- as to aluminum vs others- I am not so parochial to think that my
way is the only way; any material or method that you use that works
for your technique is great. I always have an open mind toward other
folks ideas and techniques...
Even the apprentices in my shop usually will come up with some
interetsing technique or another that I often end up adopting. Most of
us are lucky if we can add just a few new ideas to the wealth of what
we learn from others.

[WoN ereH]

thanks for, as usual, the great info. had a bit of a tumble off the front of a
horse so getting a titanium plate screwed into the ol' wrist. alas, will be
taking 'a break' from sculpting for a few weeks....


debra

[Gary Waller]

Post by WoN ereH
thanks for, as usual, the great info. had a bit of a tumble off the front of a
horse so getting a titanium plate screwed into the ol' wrist. alas, will be
taking 'a break' from sculpting for a few weeks....
debra

Are you sure with all the welders and lifecasters in this group that we
couldn't come down and rig you up some sort of 'edward scissorhands' type
contraption? Rent that video 'my left foot' for design inspiration!

Take it easy - you'll be back in the saddle in no time - you can't keep a
good sculptor down.

Best wishes and telepathic healing rays ---^^^+++++.

[Dan S]

Get a letter, to show when going through airports. courthouses. concerts.
department stores?
Dan

----------

Post by Gary Waller

Post by WoN ereH
thanks for, as usual, the great info. had a bit of a tumble off the front

of a

Post by WoN ereH
horse so getting a titanium plate screwed into the ol' wrist. alas, will

be

Post by WoN ereH
taking 'a break' from sculpting for a few weeks....
debra

Are you sure with all the welders and lifecasters in this group that we
couldn't come down and rig you up some sort of 'edward scissorhands' type
contraption? Rent that video 'my left foot' for design inspiration!
Take it easy - you'll be back in the saddle in no time - you can't keep a
good sculptor down.
Best wishes and telepathic healing rays ---^^^+++++.

[Dan S]

A local sculptor of renown, John McIntyre, made several heroic-sized statues
with copper armatures. I think he was building waterclay around them.
They were not strong enough!! They sagged!!
I asked him why he'd done them thataway and he sorta said his new friend was
a plumber with lots of copper tube odds and ends.
Eventually he had wood A's holding up the arms and he moldmade with them
sticking out, with the expected complications.
Dan


----------

Post by Gary Oblock

Post by Sculptingman

Post by Gary Oblock
This is a very interesting glimpse into your studio practices. Why did

you chose

Post by Sculptingman

Post by Gary Oblock
copper tubing over aluminum armature wire? You can get the stuff in

just about any

Post by Sculptingman

Post by Gary Oblock
reasonable thickness. You, of course, have to use the same kind of

external scaffolding

Post by Sculptingman

Post by Gary Oblock
with it that you would with copper tubing but it is very ductile and

easy to adjust.

Post by Sculptingman
I do not like aluminum armature wire because it is both expensive and
way TOO ductile- even more so than copper.
I know many sculptors like it because they can readily pose it, and
even bend it after the plastilene is on it...
Generally, I do not like my armatures to be flexible in any regard. I
want them rigid.
I use copper pipe because, in a half inch or 3/4 inch diameter, its
flexibility is negligible in the lengths I am using (1" to 3')
In addition- alluminum TUBE is really expensive compared to copper,
and is not available with standard fittings nor any simple method of
fixing the joints. TIG wleding is just too much trouble for most of
what I do. (besides, I don't know how to TIG weld)
I also tend to prefer internal armaturing- that is, I very seldom will
SUSPEND an armature from an exterior scaffold post or column as is
common in pre-fab armatures and those folks make with aluminum. If the
design has only two connections to the plinth, I will add a third that
will run external, but it is only sharing the load with the other two-
it is not supporting even half the load.
I do use a combination of water pipe and or copper sweat soldered
pipe, and for smaller portions, or for smaller sculptures, I generally
use welding rod in various gauges.
When using solid rod, I always run TWO rods, twisted together, to
further strengthen the armature and to prevent the plasitlene from
"twisting" on the armature.
I always do a maquette before a full size sculpture, and thereby
finalize the armature I will need.
So when I make the armature I know it is correct and therfore will not
need to bend it.
The advantages of a rigid armature are that you can work the sculpture
much more aggresively, you can transport the sculpture without
damaging it, and, most imortantly, the armature will have the strength
to support not only the sculpture, but the mold that will be made on
it.
christopher

Christopher --
Very interesting. I'm not sure I'll switch to copper but you certainly made your
point. I personally think, given armatures seem to evoke continuing questions,
that someone should put together a survey piece on the various amateur
techniques for the FAQ.
By the way, while on the topic of armatures do you ever use detachable sections (i.e. a
head or limb)? I've experimented with this and so far it seems to work in the
pieces I've tried it on.
-- Gary

[Sculptingman]

Copper, as I mentioned, is very ductile, and not suitable for figures
larger than life size. Even for a life size armature- I would make
sure that at least 2 pipes ran down each limb- arranged vertically and
cross tied to one another with T joints to form a decent beam.

In particular- making larger than life items out of SOLID clay or
plastilene is a HUGE mistake.
The volume of a sculpture goes up as the CUBE of the height. This
means that making an 8 foot sculpture 1 foot taller would DOUBLE the
weight of the clay. It is not hard to overwhelm even a welded steel
armature as you go up in size.

In the olden days, we would build a welded steel armature (measuring
off a maquette) and then fir out from the steel with wooden extensions
to frame out the more massive forms, Then we would cover this with a
chickenwire sheathing, trying our best to get it near to an inch or
two from the final surface.
Then over this we would put two layers of plaster bandage- wait for
this to dry to lose the water weight, and then shellac the plaster and
paint the plaster with beeswax- finally applying a thin layer of
plastilene to the surface.

This keeps the weight down a lot, but still requires a very stout
armature to carry the loads.

Of course, nowzadaze, I wouldn't dream of doing this- I would either
scan a maquette and output it to foam, and cover that twith a thin
layer of plastilene, OR I would mold the maquette and slice a casting
like a loaf of bread, scale up the profiles of each slice and transfer
the profiles to proportionally thicker sheets of urethane or
styrofoam. Then assemble the slices into a very lightweight armature
that is already very nearly the correct shape. wax and then
plastilene...

Foam armatures can result in life size figures that weigh considerably
LESS than an actual person.
Foam cored sculptures of, say, standing figures, still require a rigid
internal structure running thru the foam to carry loads and provide
stiffness thru thin sections like the ankles- however, because, the
foam can cut the weight down by 70%, the metal or wooden columns and
beams inside the foam are having to carry much less load.


It is a shame that most sculptors fail to study up on basic structural
engineeering. Being able to roughly calculate the moments acting on a
structure, and the modulus of elasticity of the materials you are
working with can really save a lot of stress and lost work.
christopher

Post by Dan S
A local sculptor of renown, John McIntyre, made several heroic-sized statues
with copper armatures. I think he was building waterclay around them.
They were not strong enough!! They sagged!!
I asked him why he'd done them thataway and he sorta said his new friend was
a plumber with lots of copper tube odds and ends.
Eventually he had wood A's holding up the arms and he moldmade with them
sticking out, with the expected complications.
Dan

[Dan S]

Wax?

----------

Post by Sculptingman
Then assemble the slices into a very lightweight armature
that is already very nearly the correct shape. wax and then
plastilene...

[Sculptingman]

Plastilene will not stick to raw foam.

Beeswax, however, can be applied molten so that it soaks in giving a
good mechanical bond, and then plastilene will stick very well to the
beeswax, once cooled. HBX2 plastilene- which I greatly prefer-does not
liquify when heated- it scorches- although if you are using a
meltable plastilene you can try applying molten plastilene to the foam
directly, but I have not had really good results with the plastilenes
I have tried.

If using styrofoam rather than urethane foam, you might have to poke
some holes into the surface of the foam to allow the wax to penetrate
(most styrofoam is that closed cell pellet type). I use a masonite
paddle with a bunch of nails driven all the way thru to beat the heck
out of styrofoam when I am forced to use it for this- and I never use
styrofoam when I can get urethene foam (like surfboard blanks without
the wooden strut down the middle.)

Tho- urethane is considerably more spensive than styfrofoam, and
sometomes the choice is driven by budget.

christopher

Post by Dan S
Wax?
----------

Post by Sculptingman
Then assemble the slices into a very lightweight armature
that is already very nearly the correct shape. wax and then
plastilene...

[Gary Waller]

Post by Sculptingman
Plastilene will not stick to raw foam.
I have not had really good results with the plastilenes
I have tried.

You have to try the jmac clays from http://www.jfmccaughin.com/, in
California. They are all heat sensitive and range from hardness to butter,
to soap bars, to machine carveable. I have sprayed then onto styrofoam.
There are some really hard putties that many sculptors use, in particular
synactic (Synaptic?) foam epoxy - which will not burn EPS foam. Also many,
many carvers just attack the big foam billets with nothing more than
templates and an electric chainsaw and sabre saw and even weed wackers!
Hardcoat with a spray urethane, then pick out the details with a dremel/mini
grinder.

Post by Sculptingman
Tho- urethane is considerably more spensive than styfrofoam, and
sometomes the choice is driven by budget.

Is there anyone custom casting urethane carving foam (6 lb density and up)
onto a welded steel and mesh armature? This would be very rough armature,
but still less waste than a square billet and of course the steel is already
in. It would also be a lot less than CAD/CAM. I have pondering this for my
own foamed rock, I think the shipping is doable - everything would arrive
one on big cardboard box. Your specs would have to be exact however, but
hand drawn would still be ok - just know you are going to get what you have
drawn.

What really started this was a visit to an old italian shop I used to work
at - they have some hardly used molds of all the familiar classics (venus de
milo, david, etc) and some hard to find pieces like the three graces, a life
size mountain gorilla. They are quite expensive to produce with the welded
armature 100's of lbs of concrete, and then all the hand finishing. They
sell for $1,800 or so. So my thought was to still do a light steel armature,
and then cast my stone carving foam, and then the hand carved details
(lacking in the casting) could be picked out. It could be further wet sanded
and waxed like travertino marble or sealed for the rougher sandstone
limestone look. SO the two options are 1) sell the casts as carving kits,
again everything arrives in a box, a hobby/craft market 2) Pay some carvers
to pick the details out, and then sell the pieces as handcarved (ok - semi
handcarved). I can get the weight of a six foot de milo down to about 250
lbs - but of course too big for UPS. Strapped and braced to a wooden pallet,
then wrapped in plastic and cardboard - then it can be freight insured.

I am really surprised how much interest there is in stone carving, and this
new process makes it look so easy. I am also surprised how much interest
there still is in the classical decor and statuary - and often the look they
are looking for is the bashed, rustic look. What does this say about our
culture? Are we trying to convince people we come from a long lineage of
good taste? Always these two competing interests in the sculpting community
or, more correctly, the 3d art and decoration market - the
abstract/contemporary and the well worn (out) classics. I also wonder about
the copyright issues on these old models/molds, they were often traded back
and forth between the italian shops in North America - copy for a copy, an
original for an original. -