Discussion:
pointing machine?
(too old to reply)
Bernard Arnest
2005-12-11 20:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I recently read of a pointing machine, developed in the 19th century
for accurate duplication. I am curious about exactly how it works,
perhaps even to build one for myself? Do you know where I can find
more information on it?

thanks!
-Bernard Arnest
Gary Waller
2005-12-12 00:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Bernard - this has been debated to death in the past in this group. Look in
the google archives for alt.sculpture. There was never one definitive source
for "making your own pointing machine" - although I did run across a link
many years ago.

This idea of "pointing" is more common in the stonecarving, ornamental
plaster, and foundry trades - it is a specific tool, used for a specific
part of a highly involved process, practised by industrial tradesmen. As you
may realise, these trades have died many years ago. There are still some
Italian and Isreali shops carving - the Italians call the machine
"machinetta" - try a search for this. The more modern way - even used
extensively in Mexico and China - is a three axis stone cutting machine
which roughs out the statue, and then the rest is hand finished. This is how
they are able to sell a marble venus de milo knockoff for less than $10,000.

So unless your art closely involves the industrial process, I would stay
away from pointing machines - use calipers, plumb bobs and a calculator.
Remember that your eyes fail as you get older - so get in the habit of
measuring and scribbling numbers down in a book or voicecorder.

This is same debate about camera obscura that emerged a couple of years ago
when David Hockney wrote a book saying that all the great masters used this
technique. As a student, you should really sspend some time on this site:

http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/philosophy1.asp#name

You seem to have an interest in the classical styles and techniques?

g3
Post by Bernard Arnest
Hi,
I recently read of a pointing machine, developed in the 19th century
for accurate duplication. I am curious about exactly how it works,
perhaps even to build one for myself? Do you know where I can find
more information on it?
thanks!
-Bernard Arnest
Gary Waller
2005-12-12 01:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Here you go Bernie:

http://www.sculpt.com/technotes/pointing_machine.htm

bon suerte
g3
Post by Gary Waller
"machinetta" - try a search for this.
Bernard Arnest
2005-12-12 06:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Thanks! And also thanks for the other website (artrenewal), it looks
interesting. I've read a couple pages of it already. I want to be
careful, it seems a little overly biased; but it seems to ask and
answer some very good questions.

What do you mean by "stay away from pointing machines"? It would
seem that if you're taking measurements, it shouldn't matter whether
you use plumb bobs and calipers or a more accurate pointing machine.
It all depends on what one can afford, and it seems a pointing machine
could be affordably built. If I could, why not use a three-axis
cutting machine? Except that, of course, it's totally out of my
budget; analagous to when I was building guitars and resawed my own
wood, there was no reason to buy a true industrial bandsaw or power
feeds, etc., there's no reason for what volume I would be working in
not keep to hand tools and maybe pneumatics for the future. But other
than that economics don't make sense, if you made it in clay already,
there is nothing at all wrong with using machines to aid in carving it.
Especially at first-- clay can have no mistakes, it's always
repairable; but it's worth it to make sure any carving I do is done
right.

Anyway, thanks for the websites!
-Bernard Arnest
Gary Waller
2005-12-12 16:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
What do you mean by "stay away from pointing machines"? >
You can do absolutely anything you want to do! I am indicating, that in my
opinion, a pointing machine would serve little purpose in the creation of
sculpture, but is rather used in the reproduction of sculpture - a skilled
industrial trade. Historically, the machine pointing system was used very
little and concentrated in the mid to late 1800's (this according to Peter
Rockwell, sculptor and art historian, in "Art of Stoneworking"). Many of the
U.S. and Canadian plaster models were sent to Europe for pointing and
reproduction because there was no foundry, up until the early 1900's, who
could produce quality, large scale, metal sculptures. I believe the first
was in New York - Alex J. Ettl -
http://sculptshop.com/about.php?SID=1134405825.7953

The machine link I sent is for "one to one" pointing. The machine for
scaling up, or scaling down, requires two precisely geared turntables and
equally precise steel rods and mounts - this is all custom machine work, and
therefore expensive. Although it is a work of art in itself (I have only
seen a photo, and I have a line drawing). It reminds me of those geared
models of the solar system that exist somewhere in olde Europe. I would be
interested in a machine or process which can accurately, and inexpensively,
reduce to miniature scale. The only sure option so far is offshore labor.
Digital is still not there yet (in my opinion) and all the important details
still have to be hand done.

I would also like to remind you that each sculpture has a scale unique to
its size. In other words, the sculptor would have to make slight changes
with every shift of scale. This is the same in professional graphic design -
a logo must be changed with each intended use - from building sign to
business card.

These things are never as simple as they first appear.
g3

ps get that clay/plaster book I mentioned before ($6.95) learn how make one
time clay molds of body parts, things in nature, and then cast them in
plaster as a reference. Hands of different ages would be useful? I'm sure
your classmates would be impressed and cooperative.
Denis Grace
2005-12-12 18:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Waller
I would also like to remind you that each sculpture has a scale unique to
its size. In other words, the sculptor would have to make slight changes
with every shift of scale.
Isn't this the truth.....If you proportion your sculpture from the live
model and enlarge or reduce it, the hands and feet especially will need to
be adjusted to look right. Once you are aware of this effect you can see
works where this wasn't done....

Denis

PS I was a guitarmaker too and I made a duplicating machine. I have some
pictures around here somewhere if anyone is interested. It would probably
route soft stone but was designed for wood.
Henri Beaulieu
2005-12-12 08:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Well, I see you never looked at the book I suggested, oh well. It has a
pointing machine in it. Malvina Hoffman's book 'Sculpture Inside and Out'
also has pictures, etc

Henri
Post by Bernard Arnest
Hi,
Thanks! And also thanks for the other website (artrenewal), it looks
interesting. I've read a couple pages of it already. I want to be
careful, it seems a little overly biased; but it seems to ask and
answer some very good questions.
What do you mean by "stay away from pointing machines"? It would
seem that if you're taking measurements, it shouldn't matter whether
you use plumb bobs and calipers or a more accurate pointing machine.
It all depends on what one can afford, and it seems a pointing machine
could be affordably built. If I could, why not use a three-axis
cutting machine? Except that, of course, it's totally out of my
budget; analagous to when I was building guitars and resawed my own
wood, there was no reason to buy a true industrial bandsaw or power
feeds, etc., there's no reason for what volume I would be working in
not keep to hand tools and maybe pneumatics for the future. But other
than that economics don't make sense, if you made it in clay already,
there is nothing at all wrong with using machines to aid in carving it.
Especially at first-- clay can have no mistakes, it's always
repairable; but it's worth it to make sure any carving I do is done
right.
Anyway, thanks for the websites!
-Bernard Arnest
Gary Waller
2005-12-15 00:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Never mind Henri - you gave good advice.

Here is a sculptor who was inspired by the book:

http://www.sandycline.com/sculpture/

g3
Post by Henri Beaulieu
Well, I see you never looked at the book I suggested, oh well. It has a
pointing machine in it. Malvina Hoffman's book 'Sculpture Inside and
Out' also has pictures, etc
Henri
Denis Grace
2005-12-12 18:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Waller
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/philosophy1.asp#name
"Ironically, this so-called "freedom" as embodied in Modernism, rather than
a form of "expression" in truth became a form of "suppression" and
"oppression." Modernism as we know it, ultimately became the most oppressive
and restrictive system of thought in all of art history."


Thanks Gary,
Everyone should read this. Especially Fred Ross's article on Good or bad
art. He wants to set art back 100 years. Personally I love the romantic
period of art i.e. "Imagination and feelings over rational thought"...so
I'm for setting art back 200 years :>)

Cheers,
Denis
s***@tfb.com
2005-12-13 05:01:31 UTC
Permalink
There is a difference between pointing- as a process of scaling a work,
and a pointing machine.
A true pointing machine is closely akin to its two dimensions
counterpart, a pantograph.
It is a series of hinged arms that will reproduce a series of points in
space on an adjustably larger scale.

You ca try d find one- but they are expensive, rare, and obsolete.
Try searching under pantograph as well as pointing or enlarging
machine.

You can do the pointing manually with some plumb bobs or surface gauges
and a refernece frame- but it is labor intensive.
Nowadays, for enlargements, more and more sculpotrs are turning to
digital enlargement-
Which is just a much more sophisticated method of machine based
pointing.

As to adjusting the scale of your hands relative to the figure....

Accurate enlargement should not cause any proporational problems
whatsoever.
It will, howver, amplify the noticablility of error.

If the hands on a figure do not look proportionally correct after an
accurate enlargement- then they are not correct in the smaller
original.

Another common error is parallax distortion. When sculpting a head
narrower than yur eyes are set apart- you will naturally distort the
shape of the head to compensate for the fact that your eyes are seeing
the sides of the head from the front.

In enlarging such a sculpture- the head will end up being too slab
sided in the enlargement, as the distortions that made it 'read' better
in the small size are not longer needed.

christopher
Bernard Arnest
2005-12-13 05:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Thanks for the tips on enlarging! For now, I'm just going to be
reproducing it, same scale. I'm going to take a carving class over the
summer, so the carving is the final, and the clay is just an
intermediate step. And especially as I'm only working 1/2-size at the
very largest, more like 1/4 scale most probably, for some time I'll be
reproducing 1:1. Although the day I want to make a full-body life-size
statue, then the ability to enlarge a maquette will become far more
important, won't it? I never thought of the issues of perspective. It
reminds me of Lanteri's book, describing how apparently on medals the
figure should be shortened, and when sculptors sculpt a large medal and
scale it down mechanically (as by a pointing machine), it doesn't look
right?

anyway, thanks again,
-Bernard Arnest
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